Dr. Paul,
Maybe it's time for you to hang up the axe grinding with the PMI and come up with some objective recommendations as to what constitutes a profession and how we can get to that point within the domain of project management. Perhaps the dictionary definition will help you get started:
Definition of Profession - 3 dictionary results
pro⋅fes⋅sion
–noun
1. a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science: the profession of teaching. Compare LEARNED PROFESSION.
2. any vocation or business.
3. the body of persons engaged in an occupation or calling: to be respected by the medical profession.
4. the act of professing; avowal; a declaration, whether true or false: professions of dedication.
5. the declaration of belief in or acceptance of religion or a faith: the profession of Christianity.
6. a religion or faith professed.
7. the declaration made on entering into membership of a church or religious order.
________________________________________
Origin:
1175–1225; ME < ML professiōn- (s. of professiō) the taking of the vows of a religious order. See PROFESSED, -ION
Seems that project management could very well fit within this definition, as there are many people who "profess" to be project managers, practicing theri craft, and many HR departments have a job description for that type of skill - witness the many different industries who have openings for and employ "professional" project managers. Certification by the PMI or other professional organization may not be, and generally is not, the determining factor for this "profession".
I am so tired of your rants and raves about the PMI - who cares? If you had a genuine interest in furthering the occupation/profession, you would offer an alternative that could lead to the "professionalizing" of the project management role. I am certain that you could enlist thousands of volunteers to help you - if only you could focus on the positive instead of continually complaining about everything - seems that if you hadn't thought of it it isn't any good.
Dr. Don, PhD, CCP, PMP
--- On Sat, 12/5/09, Dr. Paul D. Giammalvo <pauldgphd@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Dr. Paul D. Giammalvo <pauldgphd@gmail.com>
> Subject: PMHUB-G RE: Six Sigma Certification
> To: FtLeeJerry@aol.com
> Cc: PMHub@yahoogroups.com, PMHUB@googlegroups.com
> Date: Saturday, December 5, 2009, 5:53 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Fort Lee Jerry,
>
> See my comments
> below…..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: FtLeeJerry@aol.com
> [mailto:FtLeeJerry@aol.com]
>
> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:41 AM
>
> To: pauldgphd@gmail.com
>
> Subject: Re: Six Sigma Certification
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Paul,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank-you for reading my post and
> reaching out to me for more
> information. I've written my responses in red.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 12/4/2009
> 6:36:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> pauldgphd@gmail.com writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi
> Fort Lee,
>
> Nope…..
> Not confusing the CAPM and the PMP. You are believing
> PMI's marketing hype/BS. It
> sounded like you were confusing the two. Unlike the PMP,
> the CAPM is an
> entry-level credential. When you said, "the PMP, which was designed
> to be nothing more than an entry level
>
> credential" I assumed you meant it's current
> purpose, not what it was
> originally designed to be back in 1989. I wasn't aware
> that if was ever
> different than it is today, which is a credential to
> certify the experience,
> knowledge and competence of PM professions who have been
> practicing the
> profession for several years.
>
> [PDG]
> Wow Jerry, you've been reading too many of PMI's
> marketing brochures, I fear….
> The exam has not changed appreciably other than being
> dumbed down. It is now
> substantially exactly as it was back in 1989 when I sat for
> it. And IMPO, is
> serves exactly the same purpose as it did back in 1983-84.
> (And I've trained 10,000+
> PMP's in the past 20 years, so I think I have a pretty
> solid handle on what is
> being tested, even now)
>
> And
> how can you tell us with a straight face that ANY
> credential that requires 4500
> hours of UNVERIFIED experience; only 35 hours of
> "advanced" study, which can be
> fulfilled by reading a book full of sample questions or
> listening to a 35 hour
> podcast; consists of 175 multiple choice exam questions,
> that only tests for
> vocabulary and a few minor formulae, and has a passing
> score of ~61% qualifies
> one to be a professional anything?
>
> Put
> it this way, would you get on the next commercial aircraft
> if you knew the
> pilot had never taken off or landed a plane successfully,
> and you found out he
> got his pilot's license after listening to a podcast for
> 35 hours, then taking
> a 175 question, multiple choice exam and passed it with a
> score of 62%? No, I
> didn't think so…… So why would you entrust your
> next project to someone who
> fulfilled the same requirements?
>
> Lastly,
> there is not one, but two credible, independent published
> researches, one by
> Bill Zwerman and Janet Thomas, funded in part by PMI, and
> published in 2004,
> and my own PhD dissertation, published in 2007, and both
> concluded exactly the
> same thing- project management is NOT a profession and most
> likely never will
> become one.
>
> Back
> in 1983-84, when the PMP first came into being, the purpose
> of the exam was to
> ensure that people coming from functional areas had a
> sufficient understanding
> of the terminology and concepts to be able to be assigned
> to project teams and
> not be lost……. Nothing more, nothing less. This is new to me. Where did you
> read this or who told you this? I'd like to know more
> about the history of
> PMI's credentialing process and how it changed from
> 1989 to today. If what you
> were told is true, then the PMP credential sure went
> through a
> lot of changes over
> the years. Where can I learn more?
>
> [PDG]
> Talk to some of the old timers. I got this from Harvey
> Levine and Max Wideman. But
> as noted above, the exam HASN'T changed very much. I am
> using as my benchmark
> exam the same questions I used for my first PMP Prep
> course, offered through
> the University of Alaska, Anchorage, back in 1990 or
> so….. The ONLY changes I
> made to those questions is the relatively minor
> wordsmithing changes and
> additions/deletions PMI makes to the processes each time
> the PMBOK Guide gets
> revised. And as noted above, I've trained about 10,000
> people to take the PMP
> Exam so I feel I have a pretty solid handle on what is, and
> what is NOT in the
> exam, at least in terms of topics….
>
> And
> at least since 1989, when I got my PMP, (#740) neither the
> exam or the body of
> knowledge has changed in any significant way. Actually this is not true at
> all. For an academic I'm surprised that you haven't
> kept up with the field or
> the literature.
>
> [PDG] Hmmm….. Interesting
> that I am so out of touch, given I
> teach and consult and still do project management where my
> own money is on the
> line funding projects…. (the academic stuff is
> new….. Prior to that, I was a
> general contractor (built some high end houses in Smoke
> Rise and Franklin Lakes
> NJ) and for the past 20 years have been doing training,
> consulting and our own
> investment property management. Maybe you need to look
> beyond PMI's writings
> and seek out others….. Peter Morris, who certainly is
> well recognized and
> respected, characterized Project Management as a
> "discipline stuck in a 1960's
> time warp"… (And I was involved with his research,
> which you can find from
> IPMA)
>
> (Other
> than being dumbed down from 320 questions over 7 hours/5
> possible
> answers/required score of 70% on each knowledge area down
> to 200 questions over
> 4 hours/4 possible answers/required score of 70% overall;
> down to 175 questions
> over 4 hours/4 possible answers/required score of 61%
> overall to
> pass. Sorry folks, you
> are being, IMPO,
> scammed… I humbly thank-you for
> your opinion. However,
> in according to both my professional and
> expert knowledge, I know
> that I'm not being scammed. Remember, unlike you,
> I've kept up with the field
> and the literature. Also, I'm very active with the
> organization on both
> the Global and local level and meet with folks
> from both the
> credentialing and standards groups (tho they are two, very
> different
> groups).
>
> [PDG]
> Guess you don't know much about me, Fort Lee…..
> <VBG> Tell you what, get
> your AACE certifications and then get one of the Competency
> based credentials
> from IPMA or asapm in the USA or from INCOSE and THEN put
> your own retirement
> funds and/or house on the line to get a performance bond so
> you can build a
> school or some other major project and THEN come back to me
> and lecture me about
> what I know and what I don't know…..
>
> The
> CAPM only came into existence about 2000 or so, and was
> intended to
> indoctrinate people who had just graduated from High School
> or University but
> had not yet been able to build up the required 4500/7500
> hours. Not true.
>
> [PDG] ???? And what do you
> believe or understand "truth" to be
> then?
>
> It
> was (and remains) a largely meaningless credential,
> designed to be another
> source of revenue for PMI. All
> organizations need a source of revenue or
> they can't operate. This goes for both for-profit and
> not-for-profit
> organizations.
>
> [PDG] Hmmmm….. Yes, I agree
> 100% that professional
> organizations need a source of revenue….. But 100 million
> dollars??? (Check out
> PMI's last P&L and Balance sheet…) I also belong
> to the American Society
> of Civil Engineers, which is a well established, highly
> respected, 150 year old
> professional organization and they only have 5 million in
> assets…… Don't you
> have just a few questions about what any LEGITIMATE,
> 501(c)(3) , tax exempt
> professional organization is doing with 100 million dollars
> in mostly liquid
> assets? If not, maybe you should?
>
> In fact,
> the CAPM credential was not designed as a revenue producing
> product (tho they
> do have to charge for it, the same as my local bookstore
> has to charge me for
> bringing home books). The certification was designed as a
> project-oriented
> certification for entry-level PMs, team members and
> graduate students. It was
> not intended to indoctrinate
> anyone. As an academic you should
> challenge whoever it was who told
> you that and ask them what their source is for that
> misinformation.
>
> [PDG] If PMI is nothing else,
> it is an INCREDIBLE marketing
> machine…… And I stick by my statement that PMI uses
> the CAPM to indoctrinate young,
> unsuspecting high school graduates with less than 7500
> hours or college
> graduates with less than 4500 hours of experience and put
> them on track to get
> their PMP….. It comes from having belonged to PMI for
> 15 years, having formed
> 4 chapters, one SIG and having served in any number of
> elected and volunteer positions
> in the organization….
>
> Also, it
> wasn't for someone who wasn't able to build up the
> required 4,500 hours of
> professional experience. It was designed for someone who,
> as yet, did not have
> the 4,500 hours of professional experience to qualify for
> the PMP. What you're
> saying is along the lines of saying that high school is
> intended to suck in
> people who didn't have the required 12 years of
> public school to qualify
> for college.
>
> [PDG]
> I don't understand your comment above.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I appreciate that it's been 20
> years since you've earned your PMP.
> You're only guilty of having 20 years between the time
> you earned the
> credential (which, according to you, has changed
> drastically) and today. You
> can't compare, what was an experimental credential, 20
> years ago, to the mature
> credential it's become today. Also, project management
> was very different 20
> years ago (and, yes, I was around back then, as senior
> manager at Citibank and
> at J.P. Morgan, before they gave me the (paid) time off to
> go to graduate
> school). Unlike 20 years ago, when you were doing it,
> it's become a profession.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [PDG]
> First, I am not "just" an academic. I am first and
> foremost, a practitioner,
> with an undergraduate degree in Civil Engineering, (1974) a
> Masters in Project
> Management from GWU )2003) and recently, my PhD in
> Project/Program Management
> (2007) But while going to school nights, I worked in the
> trades and eventually
> ran my own construction company for 25 years. To this
> day, we still own and
> manage property as well as train and consult. (Most
> recently setting up a PMO
> for a 2.7 billion dollar High Speed Broad Band rollout)
>
>
> And
> secondly, I wouldn't be overly proud of listing either
> Citibank or JP Morgan on
> my CV if they manage their projects like they manage their
> companies…..
>
> The
> only thing that has changed about the exam over the past 20
> years is it has
> been dumbed down. And I stick by that statement.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There's no denying that
> there are some real blockheads and
> ignoramuses in any profession and line work. The project
> management profession
> is no different.
>
> [PDG] I will send you my
> dissertation and let you refute my research
> on why project management is not a
> profession…..
>
>
>
> There are still those who think
> that project management is
> "common sense"; that all you need is strong
> leadership skills, a deep
> voice and some brain power. As I mentioned in my post,
> there are a lot of fake
> PMs who might very well have a PM title or who have
> actually been assigned to PM
> tasks even though they haven't a clue. Unfortunately,
> too many have cheated
> their way into getting their PMP eligibility letters and,
> thanks to a week of
> "boot camp" cramming, were able to squeeze a
> score just above the
> pass grade and, if not earn, at least grab a PMP
> certificate. This is
> especially true of folks in the I.T. sector. These
> folk
>
> s are "cert" crazy.
> Unlike professional credentials like
> CPA or PMP, these I.T. certs only require showing up for
> some exam and passing
> it. They PMP is the same.
>
> [PDG] Finally we agree on
> something!!! (Well, up until the point
> where you equate the PMP to the CPA…… GIMME a
> BREAK!!!) Surely you jest?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, it's been my
> pleasure to clear up some of these
> misconceptions for you. PM professionals commit to lifelong
> learning and the
> blogs you and I post on are excellent tools for that. Look,
> already you know
> more today than you did two days ago when you first posted
> your comments.
>
> [PDG] Wow, Fort Lee
> Jerry……. I just don't know how to thank
> you!!! Obviously I have been in a stupor for the past 20
> years….. Thanks for
> waking me up…..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I might suggest that you take a
> look at some of the peer-reviewed
> journals out there, such as The Project Management Journal
> or The Academy of
> Management Journal. The articles in these publications are
> peer-reviewed for
> research methodology and strict empiricism. Some of these
> articles will not
> only clear up your misinformation that you've been
> hearing from other people
> about PMI and their credentials (and standards), but they
> also provide the
> rigorous research and data collection methodology as well
> as the validity of
> their conclusions (construct, external, statistical,
> content, etc.).
>
> [PDG] FLJ, do you happen to
> know the RANKING of these journals?
> Might be something you want to look into before running out
> and citing them…..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Did you take a look at my blog post
> on professional vs. I.T. certs?
> What did you think of it? You didn't give me any
> feedback on it. Does that mean
> that you liked it? I hope so.
>
> [PDG] No, but I will be sure to
> do so……. And I honestly hope
> that it allows for posting comments……
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In case you're one of those
> fellow who is able to agree or disagree
> with something without reading it (sort of like Fox News
> Channel viewers) and
> didn't read it, here's the link again.
>
> [PDG] BINGO!!! I sort of
> position myself as the "Bill O'Reilly"
> of project management…… The No Spin Zone where it
> pertains to project management-
> hence my outspoken position that PMI is nothing more than a
> 20 million dollar
> per year business, conveniently masquerading as a 501(c)(3)
> not for profit
> organization and their PMP is nothing more than an entry
> level credential,
> which is exactly what it was designed to be, and IMPO,
> serves that purpose
> quite well. But then, what could I possibly
> know……???
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://blogs.pmbestpractices.com/2009/12/how-is-the-pmp-certification-different-from-i-t-certs/
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> once again, for reading my post on the Six Sigma thread and
> for reaching out to
> me for more information. Don't hesitate to write if you
> need any more questions
> answers.
>
> [PDG]
> Will do, Jerry…… And thanks again for your
> enlightening advice…….. Keep the
> faith…….
>
> Jerry
> Bucknoff, PMP, MBA, IS.D, S.T.U.
>
>
>
>
>
> BR,
>
> Dr.
> PDG, Jakarta
>
> http://www.getpmcertified.com
>
>
> http://www.build-project-manager-competency.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> FtLeeJerry@aol.com [mailto:FtLeeJerry@aol.com]
>
> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:20 AM
>
> To: PMHub@yahoogroups.com
>
> Cc: pauldgphd@gmail.com
>
> Subject: Re:Six Sigma Certification
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Re: "the
> PMP, which was designed to be nothing more than an entry
> level
>
> credential."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I
> think you are confusing the CAPM certification with the PMP
> credential. PMP is
> not an entry level credential. Just like the CPA and other
> professional
> credentials, there are certain experience requirements that
> must be met. (Six
> Sigma Black Belt also has some experience requirements,
> though it is more of a
> practitioner credential than a professional
> credential.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The
> PMP credential is not intended to help a person move into a
> PM role. It's
> intended to certify that a person already IS a project
> manager, has been for
> several years, and can prove competency via a psychometric
> instrument designed
> to measure his/her competency.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The
> CAPM, on the other hand, is just an exam on the PMBOK
> Guide. Nothing else.
> That's plenty, but not enough to prove
> competency. Unlike the
> PMP, any competency or prior experience is
> not required.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's
> true that the PMP credential is losing some credibility.
> Much of this is due to
> the fact that a lot of people (particularly in the I.T.
> sector) are lying about
> their experience and qualifications and (with the help of a
> few friends who
> verify their lies) somehow slip through the cracks and get
> admitted to the exam
> portion of the credential. These are, indeed, entry-level
> PMs who should have
> been looking at the CAPM, not the PMP.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> While
> the PMP credential is competency based, the PgMP is even
> more so. In addition
> to the exam, you must pass through 2 additional tiers: (1)
> Approval from a
> panel of program management SMEs before you can even sit
> for the exam portion;
> (2) A 12-person multi-rater assessment (MRA) composed of
> supervisors, peers,
> direct reports and other references. In addition to the 4
> years / 6,000 hours
> of documented experience, you have to be able to show
> the successful
> management of at least 2 programs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> See:
>
>
>
>
>
> http://blogs.pmbestpractices.com/2009/12/how-is-the-pmp-certification-different-from-i-t-certs/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
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>
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>
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